tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post7259628378324678886..comments2023-05-16T06:25:15.489-04:00Comments on a joy to be me: Accountability........Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-48706086924615833232009-05-09T14:45:00.000-04:002009-05-09T14:45:00.000-04:00Hey Nick, Sorry I didn't get back to you on th...Hey Nick, <br>Sorry I didn't get back to you on this sooner. I do not see 'accountability' in Scripture anywhere. Fellowship within the body, encouraging one another in the Lord is what I see. Anyway, check out my latest post with the video Steve McVey does, I like how he summed it up. Hope this helps........<br><br>Much lovelydiahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01495924200222561417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-66178025203481822782009-05-05T14:25:00.000-04:002009-05-05T14:25:00.000-04:00Hey Lydia - This is a really tough subject! There...Hey Lydia - This is a really tough subject! There are pros and cons I guess. But I was brought up with accountability basically where people kept a close eye on you, pointed out your failings and then 'encouraged' you to do better..... it was covered in legalism! <br><br>I am just trying to start out on the journey of being completed liberated in my walk with God learning about grace - but where does something like accountability fit in? Is it actually scriptural? Is there a balance where accountability doesn't automatically fall under legalism?<br>Just wondering if you have any reflections on that?????<br>Nick xNick Cameronhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17604302877811420878noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-9707701344884920032009-05-02T14:43:00.000-04:002009-05-02T14:43:00.000-04:00Yep indeed... Rooted, grounded and established in ...Yep indeed... Rooted, grounded and established in grace... isn't a quick process by any means! It's really a lifetime process. I had exchanged a couple of emails with PAW before the Rad. Sonship conference in which he shared that he was excited about the various things he and Steve had in store for the conference. I told him that for the past 5 to 10 years, my 'ministry' has been the 'roots' of grace - helping people to become rooted and established in grace. I said, "So many people are barely even walking in the 'little children' phase, and it's so wonderful to keep on sharing the good news that encourages them in grace at that stage of their lives."<br><br>I don't think Paul would mind me sharing his reply. Here's part of it:<br><br>"I have been talking for the last couple of years on what I call ‘the business end’ of our gospel and of course that is what my most recent book, The Apprentice is all about. What I found is that people who are further along in the message are so hungry for more. We can never tire of the grace roots but we can go on to the deeper things too."<br><br>And I've been realizing that that's where I'm at. Continuing to teach the "roots" while in many respects wanting to grow as a child/teenager into a 'father,' so to speak. The way Paul expresses things has really made it easier for me to understand all of this.<br><br>Anyway... you are so right. With so many people we don't even want to go there <i>at all</i>. In my own life I found that it hindered my growth, rather than helped it, when people were trying to press me with deeper issues. In fact I found that (as you know) I had to stop going to my church, and I've ended up <i>purposely</i> going back to the "little child" mentality, simply wanting to get myself rooted and established properly!<br><br>I've enjoyed this conversation, and as always I've felt safe here simply as a friend expressing myself among friends, and if anyone doesn't care for what I say or has any issues with anything, I'm not attempting to 'prove' anything to anyone :) and I'm always more than willing to talk it out any time.Joel B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/10395847887953875757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-7304952739705367512009-05-01T13:55:00.000-04:002009-05-01T13:55:00.000-04:00Joel,I am eager to learn, 'what this looks lik...Joel,<br><br>I am eager to learn, 'what this looks like when lived out' too, and I think that is true, that is much of what Paul writes in his books, what it looks like walked out. But I just don't think we can even go there with those who aren't ready, and rooted and established in grace. I am thinking that the letters he wrote were to those he had already spent significant time establishing in grace. <br>And as for the palm tree...........great example. It seems to me, that MOST fruit trees take time to get established before they bear any fruit at all, even berries are that way!! I am so glad you brought that up. <br>I loved "Until Christ is Formed" and I highly recommend it - I would read it again, and probably will, but have lent it out at the mo...........just ordered "The Apprentice" today. Looking forward to it!!<br>I think it's great to want to see people get established in grace, while we walk out where we are at, at the same time. This indeed is Christ in me, and me for others lived out!! Thanks again Joel, you truly are a wonderful brother and friend!!lydiahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01495924200222561417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-59768046697675301952009-05-01T13:36:00.000-04:002009-05-01T13:36:00.000-04:00Hey Heather ~ What I am wondering is this, is acco...Hey Heather ~ What I am wondering is this, is accountability, even something found in the New Testament, in any of Paul's teachings? I don't see the need for accountability period. Fellowship, and friendship and counsel with others for wisdom and encouragement, yes, yes, all good things. I don't see that as interchangeable with the idea of accountability as presented in many churches. <br>So sorry to hear about how you and your husband suffered due to forced accountability. That seems to be very common. Not fun at all, but I am SO grateful to see God brought you both through that season. It must have been very difficult! <br>Glad you are encouraged and enjoying the blog! Joel is one of the wisest guys I know :) He is a blessing!!<br>By the way, I was thinking the passage you meant was 'restoring' not reproving, hee hee............glad you clarified. <br>I hope you will stick around some more, it's nice to have you :)lydiahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01495924200222561417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-3716623696106921632009-05-01T11:54:00.000-04:002009-05-01T11:54:00.000-04:00This reminds me, too, of something that I heard PA...This reminds me, too, of something that I heard PAW share in November 2006 that confirmed to me a huge part of what 'grace roots' is about. In short, he shared these words from Psalm 92:<br><br>The righteous will flourish like a <b>palm tree</b>, they will grow like a cedar of Lebanon;<br>planted in the house of the LORD, they will flourish in the courts of our God.<br>They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green...<br><br>Paul went on to bring up something about palm trees. He said something like, "Did you know that palm trees don't bear fruit during their first ten years?" He went on to basically say that a palm tree spends that time getting its roots established in the soil. If you look at the branches and leaves, the palm tree appears to simply be in a "Godward Gaze" (referring to Steve McVey's book).<br><br>That's my heart right now in life. To help people get rooted and established and grounded in grace, fixing their eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith!<br><br>In my own life, I'm seeing some other things, and I know that in recent years both Steve and Paul have begun to write and teach more extensively on the "what this looks like when lived out" stuff. It's all good! Right now, I'm happy and thrilled to grow my own roots deeper and help others do that as well, as so many of us are doing on our blogs!Joel B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/10395847887953875757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-26117013604934021402009-05-01T11:38:00.000-04:002009-05-01T11:38:00.000-04:00Yeah, Lydia, I think many in the church are trying...Yeah, Lydia, I think many in the church are trying to get people to move into a completely wrong type of "fatherhood" that is based on outward behavior, and they misuse these grace-full words of Paul to try to "mature" their flesh. Whereas the Christian life is not based on iota on our outward behavior/performance, I do believe that all of Paul's words are part and parcel of the good news, and his "behavior" talk is about encouraging one another in the outward expression of the inward reality, rather than being about behavior modification. There's a huge difference there that people don't seem to get, because all they know (wrongfully) is that the Christian life is about behavior change.<br><br>I do think that Paul's words about "put on" and "put off" have to do with the outward display... by the Spirit/by the very life of Christ in us... of our lives in Christ. Truly, truly, the "old man" is dead and gone, and so when Paul uses that language in the present sense, I believe he's simply saying to "put off" the deeds that we were accustomed to due to the old man and "put on" the outward display of the life of Christ.<br><br>He says this is several places, using all types of different language to say it, so I personally don't want to ignore what I believe is a wonderful part of the whole package of life in Christ.<br><br>I like what Ryan said, and what you and Jamie always say, about trusting the Christ in others. To add to that, I think the goal is also to help others to trust the Christ in <i>themselves</i>. As we both alluded to earlier, many people are "trying" to perform these outward deeds through the futile power of the flesh, and they don't have much of a clue about the life of Christ in them!<br><br>I do see a pattern in Paul's epistles. A wonderful, well-laid-out foundation of pure grace doctrine, followed by and mixed with exhortation and encouragement about what it looks like when lived out. My former mistake, as I said, was to think it was mixing law and grace, but I now see that he was mixing grace with talk of grace-full living. I think he wrote so much about it for good reasons! And I hope that as we mature in Christ we don't ignore those things, but uphold them as part of the whole.<br><br>I'm currently reading "Until Christ is Formed," the first in PAW's trilogy, and I'm also looking forward to reading "The Apprentice." I was trying to find a quote from PAW from the UCIF book, but couldn't find it, but it's along the lines of: We truly want to grow and mature from little children to young men to fathers, but <i>whatever</i> stage we're in is to be treasured and cherished, because that's where God has us. It's where PAW talks about the destination being the journey. It's not about "arriving" at the next stage, but it's about enjoying the journey right where we're at. I say that to say that I fully agree with you: It's truly a wonderful thing for those who have been "camped out" on legalism for so long to remain on that steady grace diet for as long as necessary! Years, if necessary! And that's a good, good thing!Joel B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/10395847887953875757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-24693272566980584612009-05-01T09:53:00.000-04:002009-05-01T09:53:00.000-04:00Um, I don't think I communicated very well wha...Um, I don't think I communicated very well what was on my heart with my first post. (Sorry, it was late at night and I ramble even more when I am tired!) I focused on the fellowship aspect, because alot of small groups at church are misconstrued as accountability groups...and I absolutely LOVE my small group at church. I agree with you, I have personal scars from forced accountability within a church setting as well. Although,if I approach someone else and ask them to help me in a certain struggle I am having, that is accountability, is it not? I don't think the word is poisonous, but I think it can be used in extremely harmful ways. I witnessed my husband, under such forced accountability at church, want to commit suicide and was so tormented that at I just PRAYED and interceded for him every minute of the day that he would return home and not just run off or kill himself. He could not measure up to their standards, nothing he did was "right"...of course not!!!! <br>GOD in His precious timing let us attend a Sonship conference where we were reintroduced to grace and the gospel and FREEDOM like we had not heard before. I thank GOD for that week, it may have only been a week of resting in Him (without children :) )but I am still gleaning from it years later.<br>I love what I am reading on this blog. I am encouraged particularly by what Joel has shared.<br>I apologize for not referencing, Lydia, again, I was tired, I believe the passage I was thinking of was Galatians 6:1 (restoring in gentleness). <br><br>Heather JoyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-2713742093390701772009-05-01T09:48:00.000-04:002009-05-01T09:48:00.000-04:00Thanks Rich. Well I muscled my way through the art...Thanks Rich. <br>Well I muscled my way through the article and here are some excerpts that stuck out to me<br><br>“Put on therefore, as God’s elect, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion.” Well, you put off a heart that is not a heart of compassion. “Put on kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; forbearing one another, forgiving each other” (verse 12; ASV). All that is contrary to those things belong to the doings of the old man. “You put them off.” The old man is very clearly portrayed here, and the new man also. Well, that is what is supposed to have happened with you and with me. That is something done. That is not a process, I mean the putting off of the old man, and the putting on of the new. That is not a process, that is a position. The process is what belongs to him, any relics at all, anything associated with him, is to be progressively put off the old man and what is belonging to the new man being put on."<br><br>and.......<br><br>"Well, we just conclude at this point with a re-emphasis. We have said early on that we had one object in view, just one, it may be wrapped around with all these other things that we have said, and are saying, but right at the heart there is only one thing, and that one thing is: Christ-likeness, being renewed unto the image of Him. And you notice the word that we have not underlined: unto knowledge, “Renewed unto knowledge, to the image of Him that created him.” It just means this, dear friends, that you and I are throughout our Christian life to be learning what Christ is, and what Christ is like, discovering Christ for life; learning in knowledge, knowledge unto conformity, knowledge unto the renewal of the lost image."<br><br>So basically this article has some key truths I have been pondering for some time now. Our position is set, we were baptized into Christ's death and raised with Him in His resurrection. Our old man is gone and we are now clothed with Christ and His righteousness. And now in this life, it's not about what we 'do' so much as it is what we 'believe'. It's our believing and knowledge of the truth that continues to set us free in Christ, and form us into His image. We cannot set out to 'do' before we set out to 'reknew'. <br>One thing I am not so sure I agree on fully, is at the end of the article how he states that the Holy Spirit puts us through trials. I think we cause ourselves to get into trials, I think by our choices and our worry and not trusting we can end up in the valley. I also think the enemy tries to buffet us through circumstances and sickness. God is not the author of sickness and tragedy. He does cause all things to work together for good. But that doesn't mean he causes the bad things, remember Job. He allows things for our good. I also believe that is His heart to bless us. So I find it confusing to say he wants good for us and blessing for us, but He causes bad things to happen, or accidents or tragedies etc.....And perhaps this is not the author's meaning, but I think it could easily be construed as so. Thus me wanting to clarify where I stand on that. <br>Anyway, I enjoyed the article and found it very thought provoking. I just finished reading a book by Ryan Rufus, called "Santification by grace" - I very much enjoyed it and am ready for part 2, haha.lydiahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01495924200222561417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-48582651084775577602009-05-01T08:17:00.000-04:002009-05-01T08:17:00.000-04:00lydia joy,This doesn't tie in with this post o...lydia joy,<br><br>This doesn't tie in with this post of yours on accountability, but it does with regard to your desire to see, have Christ formed within you.<br><br>It is a good read from Austin Sparks, http://www.austin-sparks.net/english/books/002928.html<br><br>In reading it I pondered upon the reality (the knowledge) of experiencing His grace for my life, is it simply something I'm basking in, or is His grace meant to accomplish far more than simply being His?<br><br>I see His grace illustrated this way, borrowing from an OT picture...the saints of old were "lead out, only to be lead in." Grace has lead us out from the kingdom of darkness into the Father's kingdom-family, but is that all there is to it?<br><br>Looking forward to any thoughts you care to share.Richhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12630150578438657112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-6451962974413546302009-05-01T07:26:00.000-04:002009-05-01T07:26:00.000-04:00WOW, Ryan, I am so glad you came by, I consider it...WOW, Ryan, I am so glad you came by, I consider it an honor :)<br>I love what you shared here. "Accountability is simply giving another man the right to monitor your performance." That is SO true!! I don't know about you, but I hate being monitored. When I found out God wasn't counting my sins against me anymore, and that he dealt with sin once for all time at the cross, I felt very free and relieved and happy. And you know what, that is what freedom should be. We should not want to place ourselves back under a sin microscope once we have gotten free from it by the ONE who it most matters to. Did that make sense? Are we not trusting that He is satisfied and did indeed deal once for all with sin? <br>Anyway, it is all about LIFE. I love how you brought up the fall and the trees. So many want to continue to live from the wrong tree! Oy!<br>I want more than glimpses of this LIFE, don't you!!! <br><br>You can share your thoughts anytime Ryan!!lydiahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01495924200222561417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-77629414282322118042009-05-01T00:10:00.000-04:002009-05-01T00:10:00.000-04:00Lydia, Jamie told me about this discussion a...Lydia, <br> <br> Jamie told me about this discussion and encouraged me to check it out. I totally agree with the things that you and Jamie both have said. I also appreciate Joel's wisdom. He is always like that. <br> Thoughts on accountability.... Accountability is simply giving another man the right to monitor your performance. Anything that has to do with looking at your performance should send you running and screaming the other way. We are eating out of the wrong tree here. Pre-Fall, Adam had no idea what good and evil were, but nevertheless they were real. Satan convinced Adam that this "knowledge" was something to attain to. God knew that it was someting to fall to. God never intended for us to exist at that miserable level. In the New Covenant you find only one tree. Living from LIFE is so far above the other. I believe that we are on the right track with this grace thing, but we only have glimses of what living from this Christ-Life really looks like. It is beyond our wildest dreams.<br> Christ is the Head of the body. If we cannot trust him to take care of us, then we are wasting our time. Pastor Scotty used to say, and Lydia, I like hearing you and Jamie say this so often, we must trust the Christ in us as well as in each other. In Ezekiel 34:22-24 it says, "I will rescue my flock; they shall no longer be a prey. And I will judge between sheep and sheep. And I will set up over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he shall feed them: he shall feed them and be ther shepherd. And I, the LORD, will be their God, and my servant David shall be prince among them. Romans 2:1 says, "...For in passing judgment on another you condemn youself..."<br> Sure, God uses others sometimes to minister to us, but only to minister to us Himself. Anything that takes our focus off of Christ and puts it on ourselves is wrong. <br> Just some thoughts.... <br><br>RyanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-90257204142437984222009-04-30T21:19:00.000-04:002009-04-30T21:19:00.000-04:00Joel, I absolutely love what you shared here. And ...Joel, <br>I absolutely love what you shared here. And now I think I am starting to 'see' better, where you were coming from a few months back when we had much debate about sin and practicals. <br>I think you are wise to teach only what you know and have been through, and it's SO true that many have not had a chance to even become solidified in the "little child" stage. I can SO appreciate P.A.W.'s heart to preach the Gospel to the saved. Like Julie often says, she feels like Harriet Tubman, she can 't leave people behind in bondage. <br>I think we have good reason for avoiding such talk about conduct, and I think it's wise to just stay on identity for AS LONG AS IT TAKES!!! I am hearing Rob saying, "Some people just need to go on a diet of grace for at least five years or something" And do you know what, people need to hear that, they need to give themselves permission to just camp out and rest from doing anything!! <br>I appreciate this discussion very much. I am about to purchase Paul's second in his trilogy, I loved the first one so much. "The Apprentice", I believe, the 'teenage phase'. It would be fun to go through it with some of you guys. Just a thought.lydiahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01495924200222561417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-61341953958905384472009-04-30T20:36:00.000-04:002009-04-30T20:36:00.000-04:00You're so right, Lydia... the legalists have h...You're so right, Lydia... the legalists have had a heyday with scriptures like these! They have really taken these verses and made them into "behave like Christ," when I think it's really just as you say, "let His life manifest in you."<br><br>Unfortunately (in my opinion), what the grace community has done (and I include myself in this), is we've been 'afraid' of these verses, or we've just plain ignored them, or we've cried "law!" and "legalism!" at the slightest mention of these words.<br><br>Two or three years ago my friend Kap and I did a 12 week series on Ephesians on our podcast. I think we moved slowly through 2 or 3 chapters of Ephesians, and then suddenly we came upon words that talked about "conduct" and "behavior" (I looked, and the actual Greek words mean "conduct" and "behavior")... and suddenly we decided to move on to something else. :) I admit that at the time I didn't know what to do with those verses, because I was still trying to shed legalism and to get my head on straight about the foundational verses about grace. And now that I've matured (again, my own opinion... LOL), and have become more deeply rooted and grounded, I see the benefits of those verses, from a standpoint of grace, not legalism. But yet I'm glad we didn't do anything with those verses on our program, because since that time we've <i>both</i> become much more deeply settled that our "ministry" truly is geared toward the "little children" of 1 John, who need constant reassurance of their standing with God and their identity in Him and His never failing love, etc, etc. We realize people have never even had the chance to be free in the "little child" phase, and we want to help them grow in their understanding of their true nature, apart from works.<br><br>I say all this for a reason. As Christians we will <i>always</i> need to be reminded and re-reminded and re-re-reminded of those foundational truths. Deeply rooted in them. And there comes a time hopefully that we can become the "young men" and eventually the "fathers" who can readily receive the words of the latter chapters of Ephesians, Colossians, Romans, etc, without crying "foul!"<br><br>Paul's progression in his epistles truly is <i>always</i> from the truth of grace/identity doctrine to "what it looks like in our behavior." Of all people, we who understand grace more and more, should have <i>less</i> of a problem with the word "behavior." As "little children" we become solidified in the fact that God's love and grace for us, and His acceptance of us, and His passion for us, is never predicated upon nor dependent upon our behavior. We truly need to be established in that. And then as we mature... in time (as long a time as necessary, with absolutely no pressure)... we can exhort and admonish one another in what our conduct looks like as we "put on Christ" (as His life is manifested in us).<br><br>Geez, I'm sorry I'm so long here. At this stage in life I feel I'm finally getting my "voice" for what's been growing in me for some time now. I don't think this is what I'll be focusing on on my blog and in our program, but among friends who are growing with me this may come up. And as always, I have no need for anyone to agree with me. :) And I always accept input from others as well!Joel B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/10395847887953875757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-15269577860865126152009-04-30T14:04:00.000-04:002009-04-30T14:04:00.000-04:00Okay Joel........read the 2 passages, and while I ...Okay Joel........read the 2 passages, and while I get the heart of Col. I can see how it could be a big can of worms. <br>But in the Romans passage, this struck me; 14But (I)put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh (J)in regard to its lusts.<br>Other versions say, clothe yourself with Jesus Christ. So if God already did, how do we clothe ourselves with Christ on this earth? <br><br>This is the cry of my heart, to let Christ be seen in me, not because I am so holy or have done anything to obtain that status, but because He is, and I simply partner with Him, by believing it's His life in mine and as mine, so I can easily say, I no longer want to make any provision for the flesh. Putting on Jesus, I am sure gets misconstrued in the church world. It does not mean behaving like Jesus. It means letting Him manifest in you. And we can choose to rest in His life and make choices that will line up with who we are. <br>Any further thoughs or ways to better express this Joel?...........lydiahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01495924200222561417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-65351296698934702532009-04-30T13:24:00.000-04:002009-04-30T13:24:00.000-04:00Oh... Ok! It wasn't quite as big as "Whe...Oh... Ok! It wasn't quite as big as "Where's the Beef?" but I think "Good Stuff Maynard" was at least as big as "I've Fallen And I Can't Get Up!" =DJoel B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/10395847887953875757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-46641417776154775002009-04-30T13:16:00.000-04:002009-04-30T13:16:00.000-04:00Cute..........nope I never had the pleasure of mee...Cute..........nope I never had the pleasure of meeting Maynard in all my tv viewing :)lydiahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01495924200222561417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-85295941356596752042009-04-30T12:47:00.000-04:002009-04-30T12:47:00.000-04:00Amen indeed! Patience, and a proper foundation of...Amen indeed! Patience, and a proper foundation of the truth of grace and our identity is the most necessary thing! And an established relationship of grace-full trust, as you say. I reckon Paul had established that trust with many of those who read his letters, if not personally and face to face, then through his reputation.<br><br>Come on, you 80's chick! You know this, don't ya:<br><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWtiritKccM" rel="nofollow" rel="nofollow">Good Stuff Manyard!</a>(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWtiritKccM)Joel B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/10395847887953875757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-26527598288785023142009-04-30T12:33:00.000-04:002009-04-30T12:33:00.000-04:00Joel, Who's Maynard?? :) Anyway, I love what y...Joel, <br>Who's Maynard?? :) Anyway, I love what you shared and I agree, no trying, just living out of union with Christ as our source. <br>I love how you further clarified how the body can operate, based on a foundation of grace and knowing who we are. I don't think it's possible, or helpful, apart from being grounded in grace. Otherwise, it just foster's religion and legalism. <br>It is true we can say to our brother's and sister's that is not who you are in Christ, when they are stuck on the flesh and struggling. I like that so much better, because it's exhortive, not condemning. It's reminding them who they are. But before we get to that point, I think we need to be patient. Say for example a brother is addicted to drugs, or alcohol and having a hard time quitting. You and I may know that's not God's best for their life, but we also know that if they continue to saturate and reknew their minds in grace they can get set free in time. I think alot of old mindsets and teachings need to be shed off and this can take time. We must know how to wait and trust the Spirit to work in others, before we open our mouths and say anything. I think we must also establish trust with our brother's and sisters too. <br>Anyway, just some thoughts that came to mind for the general conversation's sake.......I will most definitely take a look at the Scriptures you mentioned. Thanks my brother!!lydiahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01495924200222561417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-14157587907227719942009-04-30T11:25:00.000-04:002009-04-30T11:25:00.000-04:00I like Eugene Peterson's wording in Matthew 11...I like Eugene Peterson's wording in Matthew 11 --- "learn the unforced rhythms of grace." Unforced. Rhythms. Grace. Good stuff, Maynard!<br><br>Natural.<br><br>I agree that when people "get" grace they don't have to try so hard. I'd take it even further than that, of course, and say that it's not about "trying" at all, as I'm sure you agree. :)<br><br>I think that <i>part</i> of the unforced, natural rhythm of grace, in addition to the main and necessary foundation of building one another up in the truth of grace and in their identity in Christ, is speaking words to one another that effectively say both "that's not Christ in you" and "that's truly Christ in you."<br><br>It's not sin management. It's naturally and non-forcibly helping one another as a body unit to "put to death the deeds of the flesh" (Colossians 3:5) and to instead seek the things which are above and to "put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts" (Rom 13:14). Please read all four verses at the end of Romans 13 (11-14) to see more fully what I'm getting at, as well as Col 3:1-11. There truly is room for talk and admonishment and encouragement in these ways that in no way takes away from the unforced rhythms of grace!<br><br>But as we all know, many in the church have taken these passages the wrong way, and have taken the grace out of them and made them into rules. I received an email the other day from some people who are grace walkers, who asked me about the above Colossians passage. This husband and wife are part of a home group which is going through Colossians, and the husband wrote to tell me that the rest of the group is focused on the "rules" and "commands" of this passage. It's sad that people see it that way. The legalistic church only sees rules and commands, and the grace community neglects these words of Paul because they only see legalism - which is <i>not</i> what it is! It's all part of the life of grace!<br><br>I simply pointed out to this man the wonderful foundation Paul laid in this epistle about the grace and love of God. Paul gets deep here. Really great foundational stuff to be rooted and established in. It was only after laying the foundation that he began talking about what it looks like when lived out.<br><br>So anyway, I think it's absolutely necessary, and an ongoing thing for all of the rest of our lives in Christ, to deepen our roots in the truth of grace, grace, grace and our fully established identity in Christ. And, as <i>part</i> of the unforced rhythms of grace, we can also share these other things with each other. But on track with your post... "accountability" is not the way to go!Joel B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/10395847887953875757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-83827062858893424612009-04-30T10:11:00.000-04:002009-04-30T10:11:00.000-04:00I agree with you Joel!! I am finding that pure bod...I agree with you Joel!! I am finding that pure body life is refreshing........I am learning a great deal from all of my grace blogging friends. I think it's clear that a body functions in unity, walking things out together, FOR each other, by faith expressing itself through love. Unfortunately, alot of people have a skewed idea of what love should look like walked out..........it's definitely putting others under the sin management microscope, that's for sure!!! But don't you think that when we GET grace - real body life starts to happen, we don't have to try so hard. Do we have to try hard to move our bodies, to blink our eyes, to walk around, to eat food, to go to the bathroom, to smile, for our hearts to beat and have blood pump through them. This is an organic overflow of the life of Christ in us. Too many churches press for the people to try to look like a body.lydiahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01495924200222561417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-43751712303224477362009-04-30T09:48:00.000-04:002009-04-30T09:48:00.000-04:00I really do believe that it's the way of the b...I really do believe that it's the way of the body to be bringing out the Christ in each other. To me, it <i>used</i> to be a very legalistic thing and I strongly resisted any such words, but now I've seen and experienced from a grace-full perspective that there is a lot that we can do and say to one another to build one another up in our true identity in Christ and to encourage one another in the walking/working out of it.<br><br>Paul Anderson-Walsh calls the second part of that "the business end of the gospel." The problem with the church today is that they focus solely on teaching works, works, works, principles, principles, principles, rules, rules, rules, etc. That's what the end result of "accountability" is meant to be. Getting people to stop doing the wrong things and start doing the right things. But that's not real body life!<br><br>Real body life includes loving one another, serving one another. The true end result of body life is faith <i>expressing</i> itself through love. Love, in this respect, is an action word. It's not just "God for me," but it's "me for others." I truly believe that, not through "accountability," but through talking and walking things out <i>together</i> as a body, we can "spur one another on toward love and good deeds."Joel B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/10395847887953875757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-89764866365051792272009-04-30T09:37:00.000-04:002009-04-30T09:37:00.000-04:00Aah, He is indeed MORE than enough........I think ...Aah, He is indeed MORE than enough........I think I am getting to a place where I want just that, organic relationship with Him, day to day, simply trusting Him and enjoying Him. That's truly my heart, because in Him I find peace no matter what the surface is like!lydiahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01495924200222561417noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-30294847253050008752009-04-30T09:30:00.000-04:002009-04-30T09:30:00.000-04:00"Just waiting and trusting.........but more s..."Just waiting and trusting.........but more so learning to live in a constant union with Him and not letting my life on this earth be about anything regarding my flesh."<br><br>I loved what I heard your heart saying!<br><br>Too many wnat only what He can do for them, give them, but so few are willing by His grace to go through each day simply wanting Him, to learn of Him, to Know Him!<br><br>Is He enough?Richhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12630150578438657112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-139676684011582364.post-34185894976007257382009-04-30T09:26:00.000-04:002009-04-30T09:26:00.000-04:00You are most welcome Phil. And I heartily Amen you...You are most welcome Phil. And I heartily Amen your thoughts on this post!!!lydiahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01495924200222561417noreply@blogger.com