Tuesday, February 12, 2008

The Phantom of Romans 7....

Reading through Romans is a wonderful yet complicated task.....I have enjoyed reading it many times and have sought to gain insight on the tricky passage in Romans 7, that it seems the Doctrine of Indwelling Sin is based from, in addition to "the heart is deceitful passage", found in Jeremiah 17:9. Anyway, I can't understand how a doctrine is based on 2 verses of the Bible when there are so many amazing clear passages all through the New Testament after the death and resurrection of our Lord. I also can't understand why on God's green earth any Christian would want to focus on this "doctrine" when we are taught we are dead to sin and alive to Christ. And why, oh why would they want to allow these great truths be overlooked and spend any length of time teaching on "indwelling sin".  I confess, I just don't get it! Our inheritance in Christ is rich and wonderful, and sin's curse has lost it's grip on us!!!! Hello!!! So, I have been searching and searching the Scriptures asking reputable grace teachers and looking online for something to help with this confounded passage! I honestly think the enemy really uses it to keep "right living, literal bible translating Christians" in bondage. (of which I once was!) Well, tonight I found a very interesting article that I think could shed some light on this very thing.  It's called the Phantom of Romans 7, check it out here.  Do by all means let me know what you think? 


Dan Bowen said...

"Christians who have lived striving to beat sin because they did not realise they were dead to sin and believed that the two natures were in constant conflict, will have to, in some form, correct their inadequate view of the Gospel, go though some sort of experience as Paul did, until the Spirit of God witnesses to them that they are indeed controlled by the Spirit of God and do not have to strive against either sin or law".

Excellent. Really really excellent.

What I am coming to learn is that actually our conciousness (or HOW we live) really matters. If we live with the belief that there are two opposing natures within us somewhere fighting it out for supremacy of ourselves then we will leave surely in a sort of defeatist attitude. After all the fight is never going to be over until we die!

But if we live with the conciousness that when Jesus Christ said; "It is finished" and we take Him at His glorious word, then surely our lives will be different!

lydia said...

Great thoughts Dan! Yeah if we live with the idea that we are perhaps our own worst enemy, due to our "indwelling sin"....well, where is the hope in that, how will we ever experience true Victory!
I find this quote helpful
"Our thoughts form our beliefs - Our beliefs form our
convictions- our convictions form our attitudes - our
attitudes form our perceptions, our perceptions form
our behaviour" (Rob from How wonderful is the Gospel)
It all starts with our thoughts and then trickles down, must be why the Bible has so many verses like be transformed by the renewing of your mind....and others.....

Dan Bowen said...

Lydia, I was going to respond to this on "SGM Uncensored" but Kris did request that we limited ourselves to the "RBD Discussion". I was completely horrified when you said what Jared Mellinger preached;

"The One who fulfills the Law for us demands uncompromised righteousness from us".


Well if that is the case (and I haven't heard the whole sermon) then no wonder the Church across the world is full of depressed Christians!! Because WHO (apart from Mellinger maybe) can meet that demand?! That was the whole point of the Law!! The Law was given to make it clear that we just simply couldn't, ever, not in a million years ever ever EVER fulfill it and we NEEDED righteousness!!

But not from ourselves but from another!!

So now actually Jared Mellinger (and I am really not slagging him off because I don't even know him!) is teaching that we are out of the frying pan of the Old Covenant Law and into the fire of the New Covenant law where "Uncompromised righteousness" is DEMANDED from us?!?!?!?!

Forgive me if I am going off on a wrong tangent, but was that REALLY what he was saying??!!? And Apostle Harvey didn't even correct that?! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!

lydia said...

comment 67 on RBD, has the link for the TIHQ's from the messages, I can't seem to find the actual message, although I did hear it last year. I remember talking to a friend about it, she said it was utterly depressing!
anyway, it is very alarming to me that that was preached and now they are trying to preach grace alone, without so much as mentioning hey last year we taught the complete opposite and confusing the living daylights out of people, thus my angry rant a few posts ago!
All I want is a little genuine humility and honesty on their part to their people!!! Is that too much to hope for?????
You are not out of line, you are genuine and I hope people can see by our response there is more to this whole thing than just feeling good about your church family, it's about truth and there is only one Gospel. And they are clearly preaching a false one if you ask me!! ( I realize that statement may get alot of people upset with me, but I hold fast to it.)

Dan Bowen said...

Well Lydia I think you are absolutely right sadly. Surely if the Word of God is our final authority. Paul is so clear in Galatians!!

"I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ, But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!" (and that was the NASB version! The BEST version!! ;)

So it seems Paul is quite clear - it doesn't matter whether it is our favourite pastor/preacher, Jared Mellinger or C J Mahaney himself. If another gospel is being preached ... then it's a false gospel.

I will force myself to go follow the link and listen to the whole sermon, but what concerns me is why are so many books being written about "penal substitution" and "cosmic child abuse" and yet the gospel of grace is being downgraded.

It must be all the Rob Rufus I am listening to at the moment, hearing legalism preached like this is making my blood pressure go through the roof!! ;)

lydia said...

Sorry to get you so riled:)
Let me know if you find the message, I can't, I want to listen to it again. I hope to write a letter to JM.
Thank God for the rare gift of true grace preachers, sadly there are so few!!!!!

Dan Bowen said...

No its okay - I would rather get riled about things that are worth fighting for! Better to get riled surely than be attacked with the common evangelical curse of passive lethargy and "don't-care attitude!!". I think it's great that you are going to write a letter to him. These people need to be told that what they are preaching is not always matching up to the standard of the Word of God!

jul said...

in order it get the older messages from covenant (such as 'the disciple's law" that you're talking about) you have to subscribe to their podcast. yep, that was a classic one Lydia, still remember screaming at my computer lol. the disciples conscience by Dave Harvey was another doozy, in fact that whole series was pretty amazing...

lydia said...

Thanks for the tip, Jul. Yeah I read the TIHQ for the whole series and I was so glad I had been out in the lobby with my little guy......Wow!!!!
Free at last, thank God, I'm free at last!!