Saturday, February 7, 2009

Agape..........

I decided to include a bit more from Paul A. Walsh's book, "Until Christ is Formed". He does such an outstanding job on expounding  on God's agape love, that I felt like including some of his thoughts on this awesome topic. (calling God's agape a topic just doesn't seem right, nevertheless...)  I just don't think we 'get' this agape love, we can't fully fathom, how high, how wide, how deep and long is the love of God. We have mostly seen a poor example of 'love' throughout our lives, that has somehow been tainted by our own need driven agendas, or that of others in our lives. So, here goes;

When the Apostle John wanted to define the nature of God's love, he did not rely on the classical Greek words "phileo" and "eros" for to him, they were inadequate. Instead, he chose an unused Greek word, "agape" to convey his meaning. "Agape" means "me for others" and this agape is as absurd as it is outrageous. To the religious mind, it is risible and yet, it is nonetheless, the truth about the God of the Christian Bible. God is love and God loves us and His love is unconditional. To love us is both His heart's desire and His fixed choice. Agape finds its meaning, purpose and fulfillment not in acquiring all it can for itself but in being all it is for others. It is in giving and not getting that agape finds its fulfillment. 
There are only two words in the Bible, each meriting a chapter dedicated entirely to describing them - Faith (Hebrews 11) and Love (1 Corinthians 13). Faith is the revelation of the second phase of the Christian life, but love is the foundation without which all faith an all activity are worthless. The realisation that God is Agape ought to thrill our souls and cause us to soar, to run and not grow weary, to walk and not grow faint. Sadly, for some (if not, all) of us, the concept of love causes us to hesitate. We are cautious of it, suspicious even. That, I would suggest, is due to our becoming more accustomed to the counterfeit rather than the real thing where experience triumphs over hope resulting in our tendency to withdraw, to be compulsive, inhibited, repudiated, rejected, disdainful and to mistrust. These fear inducing introjections have caused us to run from, and not run to, God.
Herein lies a crucial reality - since God is love, we cannot seperate our understanding of love from our understanding of God. Moreover, we are being conformed into the image and likeness of God [Rom. 8:28-30]. However, in the absence of an abiding and trusting heart which allows Him to be the cause of His own effect, of His being the Author and Perfector of our faith, we are want to try and conform ourselves in our perception of what He is like. In short, we ultimately become whatever we believe Him to be like.   

So, until we 'get' a serious heart revelation of who God really is, and how unconditional and vast His love is, we will be stuck, and won't be able to discover who we really are. We have to get a serious grip and revelation on the ridiculous love of God!! So the Apostle Paul, devotes 1 Corinthians 13 to do just that. Paul Walsh goes on to expound further on Paul's exposition to the church at Corinth and carefully looks at each characteristic of agape. He explains how each attribute of love builds to show agape in a deeper way. So each aspect of love;  patient, kind, does not envy, does not boast, is not proud, is not rude, is not self-seeking, is not easily provoked, keeps no records of wrong, thinks no evil, rejoices in the truth, bears all things, always hopes, always perseveres, and never fails, help us to step by step 'see' the awesomeness of agape. Or as Paul states it, "they complete, step by step, an ascent of Mount Carmel until we finally arrive at the breathtaking summit." I won't go into each characteristic of love in this post, but thought I'd include a the first two so you can see how they build and get a deeper revelation of the aspects of God's agape. 

Let's start with, Agape is patient. It was not immediately apparent to me why the Apostle would think to start his assent of the mountain with this characteristic until I realised how we use the word "patience" nowadays. 
I thought about the amount of times I had heard the expression "I am losing my patience" when I was growing up or how many times I had both heard and said, "you're trying my patience." The more I thought about it, the more I realised what profound effect the word "patience" had had on me during my formative years. With disturbing ease, I was able to recall the anxiety I felt and , to a much lesser extent, still feel when someone was trying to explain something to me which I did not understand. Whenever they had lost me in the conversation, I would have this terrible inner struggle about telling them that I did not get it because I did not want them to lose their patience with me. Many a time when someone gave me instructions rather than seeking clarification, I would just nod like I understood. I thought about my life struggle with instructions and it is like those demonic things which you get with self-assembly furniture. I can guarantee you that if I start working on something like it, I will "lose my patience" with it. Why? Well, it is simply because I do not have any love for things like that. Where there is no love and understanding, there is an indefatigable amount of patience. 
When people tell me that they are being "patient with me", what I assume is that they actually want to beat the living daylights out of me, that they are effectively withholding their anger and thus, I should be careful not to push it too far. Consequently, in my previous religious paradigm, the god of that world would stay his anger towards me provided that I did not push him too far. I have not really seen that "patience" is calm endurance of hardship, provocation or delay. It is tolerant forbearance born out of calm self-possessed waiting. It is, in fact, core to God's nature and is neither limited nor conditional. It simply is a descriptor of His nature. God is patient and this is completely different from stating that God is being patient to which He is not. He is patient by disposition and not imposition. When I finally realized that God was not tutting the whole time and getting impatient with me because I did not get it, that liberated me. Despite my stupidity, He never lost His patience, never chided me and never thought about getting rid of me by replacing me with someone who would get it. 
For a child, I can see how this understanding of patience is integral. I had taught four children how to walk and not once did I lose my patience with them nor write them off and say to them, "You're wasting my time, you'll never get it." Every attempt was celebrated. Indeed, the more they failed at walking, the more I cheered them on. Moreover, I knew that they would walk when they were ready and not before. All they got from me was the constant encouragement, "Yes, you can do it. I believe in you. I will show you how." 
It is easy to see the value of knowing that agape is patient because it means that agape gives us room to fail without censoring us. It also means that we are freed to not get it and yet, not be adjudged as being stupid. In short, it means that love is set in the context of assurance and therefore, it is rooted in the ground of no condemnation. Patience gives us permission to fail and consequently, permission to succeed.  

He then asks; How does the idea that God will never lose His patience with you make you feel?

Wow, I don't know about anyone else, but I needed to hear that and see that!! His patience, makes me feel so safe and so secure. I realize it's okay to stumble and trip along the way, and He will be right beside me cheering me on!!! Wonderful!!

Next, let's look at what Paul says about,  Agape is kind. 

"Or do you presume on the riches of His kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead to repentance?" - Romans 2:4

Nobody in the world knows me better than my wife, Hayley. I began to think to myself about how she reacted to my kind of "kindness" and quite often, though not always, her response would be to say, "What are you after?"  It is such merited cynicism as the anti-type which we must keep in mind when we think about God's kindness. The first thing we must insist upon is this- For kindness to be agape kindness, it must want nothing for itself. That principle is non-negotiable. If kindness wants anything for itself, it is disqualified. Agape is always and can only be "me for others".  It can never be "others for me".  Kindness having anything up its sleeve is not kindness at all. It is manipulation or seduction.  Sadly, the vast majority of our exposure to "kindness" has been the counterfeit variety which, in truth, is manipulation, i.e. self-giving in order to promote self-getting. And this gives rise to the widespread notion that men give love to get sex and woman give sex to get love. 

He then asks; How do you feel knowing that God is kind to you not because He wants something from you but because it is His nature?  I don't know about anyone else, but that truth makes my heart soar. It creates such a freedom in me that gives rise to a greater awe for my Heavenly Father. His kindness is so pure and so wonderful, I just can't fathom it fully, but I want to soak in the true aspects of His astounding nature more and more!

29 comments:

Phil said...

Lydia,I won't mention this again,but have a look at p30ish in Don Carson's book I mentioned...or check out the usage of agape,eros,phileo etc in a concordance. When I looked ages ago after reading Carson's book,I found 'agape'used of bad 'love'as well as good 'love',as well as eros and phileo used of the love of God. So I don't think the etymology tells us there are different types of love. Just love,variously expressed,lifting up what's involved in various relationships.

Matthew Campbell said...

WOOOOO!!! Thank you, Lydia!!!!!!!!!!! Paul nailed it! What wonderful news this is!!

Much, much love to you, big sister!! Thank you so much for posting!

lydia said...

Okay Phil, I am not sure what to think here...........I can't say I have personally studied the etymology myself. I don't think that eros love is even used in the Bible and if it is, my guess is it was added in at some point. If you are hung up on all the 'terminology' than just ignore it here and take what is good and chuck the rest, okay! My post was meant to be encouraging, not a theological etymological hang up. The good news of God's unconditional love should be so simple that even a child can understand it!! Yay for me, cause I am no scholar, nor do I ever plan to be one. No offense to scholars or anything. Okay?!

Grace and peace to you!!

lydia said...

It is wonderful news Matt, refreshing, uplifting and encouraging!! You are most welcome little brother!!

Anonymous said...

Lydia,I'm not a scholar. I was just putting some thoughts in mind that bear on discussion. It has been a tradition to say God's love is tied to the agape word group,Carson says. And then that love is often defined as self-less altruism,etc. But he says that there are excellent linguistic reasons why agape came on the scene,on unlike what Paul AW says, we should be cautious of investing that word group with theological import. To do so assumes there are different types of love- God's love,and various human types,which are inferior. Whereas he suggests,if I remember right, that human love is not a different genus to God's love-but obviously a different quality-in fallen man,what makes it 'human' is not 'is it phileo'or eros per se, but that the aspects of humanity involved in loving are yet in slavery to sinful self. Apart from God's presence to make them a different quality...Some examples Don gives of the varied use of the words-Jn3v35,5v20 says the Father 'loves' the Son. The first verb is agapeo,the second phileo...when Paul writes that Demas has deserted him because he 'loved'this present evil world,in 2Tim4v10,the word he uses is agapeo...I think he said somewhere,too,about the eros sounding expressions of God's love in jealousy at Old Covenant Israel's unfaithfulness...all this to say that there's varied expression to 'God's love'. As well,God being perfect, he glorifies himself in whatever he does, without being at all 'selfish' in the way humans understand that term. So there is a 'self'aspect to God's love. Also, the term 'unconditional' could mean different things. God loves all,but the elect in a peculiar way. He loves those that believe manifestly different to those who do not. He has unconditionally set his love on the believer,and it's a perfect love,but an active one,and it seems there is a sense in which we need to remain in it,Jude21...thinkin'aloud,Lydia.

Phil said...

Sorry the mistakes,and the 'anonymous' header. Typing on a fiddly mobile phone.

joyfullydia said...

Oy Phil, my head is spinning.................!! I am thinking the Apostle John knew Christ quite well, no? And was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write concerning the love of God for the New Covenant Believer, and he chose agape love. I think the heart of this post, whether you agree on how the terms are used or not, was to be uplifting to our hearts, not a mental exercise or whatever. Don Carson's writings are WAY too complicated for me to comprehend, I don't think it should be so complicated. Remember, little children can understand this stuff, God's love, and the GOOD NEWS.
I agree that He has set His love on me and that His love is perfect and active and I will rest and remain in His love and even when I doubt it I am still in His grip of love!!!!! Awesome!!

Phil said...

Argh! You're not getting me! The Holy Spirit uses other words for God's love, too. And agape for 'bad love', and I gave that example...basically,I'm saying God's love is richer than what many say 'agape' is...a kind of selfless altruism or whatever. God is other-orientated but self-orientated too...and the idea that friendship love,romantic and sexual love are NECESSARILY lower loves, rather than somethings that should be informed and empowered by God's love,strikes me as a bit 'higher-life/other- worldly/ascetic/'spirit good,body bad' dualism'...I think God's love to us is meant to lift up these expressions of our God-given humanity,rather than replace them. Do I make any sense? (I know I might not, and that's not necessarily your fault!). Sure,the gospel is simple. Doesn't mean that anybody realizes its full ramifications though,as if God was so simple any of us could fully comprehend, by a long shot. Otherwise,he wouldn't be God. We would!..and it's not like children don't mature!

Chris Welch - 07000INTUNE said...

very interesting...But all said and done I can hear roland and Heidi Baker slumping around their microphones....expelling air like they do...and laughing.

lydia said...

Phil,
Are you trying to tell me I need to grow up? haha, lol
No really, I am sorry that I am not 'getting' your point, not meaning to frustrate ya. I guess I can be pretty 'black and white' so to speak and often miss people who think more deeply than I.
There are two things you said that struck me, one in the last comment you left on the last post, you said something about the flesh, having been weak in itself prior to our new spirit filled nature. Something struck a cord when I read that as well as your continued comments - I can tend to divide myself up like you are saying, but I guess that is me trying to get a hold of who I really am now. So in a sense I do need to grow up and will as I grow in my knowledge of Jesus and rest in Him, He will transform me and I will begin to 'see' how living out that love will really look for me, I don't usually think about it too much, but sometimes I notice when I am fleshy and sometimes I notice, cause I marvel at it, when I am walking by the spirit .......anyway, I don't know if I am still tracking fully with you, but I am trying!!

lydia said...

oh you must have been typing when I was..............are you perhaps frustrated? don't be, this is an opportunity to learn from each other, I appreciate you being willing to hang in there and hash it out with me.........Peace to you!!

lydia said...

Chris,
Funny, I have never heard Heidi and Rolland together, I have only observed Heidi, what a riot, I especially like when she does the 'r' rolling thing, and the 'whoa' thing..............

Phil said...

Lydia,I think you're too generous with me. I wasn't referring to you needing to grow up,just talking generally about us growing. I don't think a child could understand much of Paul's reasoning in Romans, for example,but they may get the core of the gospel...I just think a bit. A lot. With a tired brain,as you know. Where I'm at is wondering whether I'm saved,often, while wanting to experience liberty and power. At the same time,I seem to be thinking all the time. If you have a look at my comments on Joel's latest post,there's some of what I'm thinking...apologies for the lack of paragraphs, etc. I'm typing on my phone.

lydia said...

Phil ~
Not sure what to say, but I tend to focus on the simplicity of the Gospel myself because that's it, that's the whole deal and I believe it has power to transform lives and produce greater and greater freedom. Paul's main message was Christ and Him crucified!! You believe this message, no? Then why are you wondering if you are saved? You can't do anything to obtain your salvation or keep it. You can't do anything to seperate yourself from the love of God.....You are in Christ and that is a done permanent deal!! Perhaps you have a noisy mind like I do and may just need some rest in His Presence............anyway, I will check out what you are saying over at Joel's, in the meantime;

Grace and peace to you!!

Phil said...

Sister,I think it's wondering whether I have saving faith and repentance. It's not like it used to be-I was in the depths of despair over this and other things,a few years back...I think I'm just needing to get my heart and mind more established in the new covenant. Bear with me some,if and when I post thoughts like I have done,if that's ok. I don't come here so often because I only post via my phone when I buy a day's credit...there's a guy called Frank, aka 2Cor3, who's been posting on someone's 'multiply' blog,whose comments will interest you. I can't give the link, but if you search on google for 'Joseph Prince', some way down there's a header that comes up, something like 'Daniel's site-joseph Prince the heretic'. Frank's comments are clearly not in line with that sentiment, but I thought you might be interested.

lydia said...

Bearing with you Phil, no worries..............

Matthew Campbell said...

Phil,

The reason you get caught up in wondering if you have saving faith or true repentance is because you're focusing on yourself and not Christ. Something I often slip into.

If my faith is in my faith, it isn't in Christ.

If my faith is in how I'm observing the law (not sinning) then my faith is not in Christ.

What Lydia is trying to get across in these messages is that we are dead the the law and to performance. It isn't about us anymore. It's so simple that we can stumble over it if we're not careful.

"Through the one Man's obedience the many will be made righteous."

Furthermore it isn't your faith that saved you. It is Jesus that saved you. Your faith just took hold of it. Also, you didn't receive the Spirit by observing the law (trying not to sin). You received it by believing what you you heard. That is, the Gospel.

Jump into the arms of Jesus everyday in naked faith.

As my friend Andy says - "I'm not much into skydiving - but here goes!"

Matthew Campbell said...

I didn't mean to call the Holy Spirit an it. I'm sure he laughed it off lol.

Phil said...

Maybe. There's a difference between seeing Christ's grace, and seeing your interest in it,though. An unbeliever can see his grace,after a sense,and even rejoice in it for a while(seed sown on stony ground) and not have a saving interest. I also think there is a difference between the faith that says 'I believe there's a coin in your hand because you say so and I reckon your truthful'and the faith that has a special witness to it that says 'I know the coin's in your hand because you've just showed it me'.

Jamie said...

Mmmmmm...what an excellent conversation. Phil, I believe Lydia could recommend some great books if you're interested. I am amazed at your phone typing abilities; I hope it isn't while you're DRIVING!! ;)

Seriously, though, it does sound like you want to be convinced of something...Lydia, nor anyone else can do that. That is the Holy Spirit's job. The Holy Spirit woos you to Jesus. Period. He witnesses of His love. He points to the cross. You cannot be persuaded into faith; faith is not logical. God manifested His love on THE CROSS and that must be proof enough for all.

I get the feeling that you want to experience God so that you can trust Him. Unfortunately, you have to trust Him to experience Him. Faith.

I will promise you this: once you jump He will not drop you. Quit trying to figure God out and enjoy His love for a while.

jul said...

Phil, if you're interested I just wrote a post on faith...http://voicegrace.blogspot.com/2009/02/faith-believing-in-gods-love.html

I kind of understand (I think) where you're coming from on the love part, that all God's expressions of love are good, and there is not one super spiritual version of love and also that his love is not completely selfless but he enjoys loving us and he enjoys us loving him back...something like that? His love is perfect though, is what maybe Lydia is getting at, our love is not perfect unless the source is God through the Spirit of Jesus who lives in us/through us.

I think you're right that you need to be more established in the new covenant. Are you listening to any grace preachers? Your faith will naturally rise up in you as you hear the good news over and over.

Blessings!

Phil said...

Just an acknowledgement of your comments...RJW,there's nothing wrong with thoughtful pondering. On the contrary,it's part of faith. The once-for-all-delivered-to-the-saints-faith revealed in the written Word hangs together logically. It needs to be our authority on what that faith is, and Paul etc had no qualms about people rightly dividing the scriptures ;) That's why I want genuine experience based on truth.

Anonymous said...

Anyway,folks,pray for me. I'm very tired with M .E. and I really want my heart and mind at peace and with power and love. I don't have others to freely talk to about the gospel and grace etc,at home,or elsewhere. But it's my own heart that needs to be firmly established.

lydia said...

Anon, I am assuming this is Phil.......I will pray for you. Remember the verse that says "let not your heart be troubled...." Well, you are the only one who can "let not" ......so I pray that you would be filled with His peace that passes all understanding, that your heart would so firmly grip this truth of the glorious Gospel of God's lavish grace and love for you, that it would be sealed upon your heart and mind and no one can take it away from you! I pray that you would see Jesus more and more and more, and that through seeing Jesus you would more deeply see your salvation and your life in Him!! I pray that your body would line up with the truth, that you are the healed of God, in Christ Jesus and I pray that you would rest in His love for you, that you would let go of all fear and worry and just rest, knowing that He dances over you with singing, and I pray that you would sense His touch upon you and be refreshed by His streams of living water..............AMEN!!

Much much grace and peace to you PHIL ~ Hang in there!!!!

Anonymous said...

Lydia, thank you. Must have entered 'anon' I'm tired of being crushed. I need a heart that's like you said.

lydia said...

Your welcome Phil..........sometimes we just gotta stop thinking and start drinking...............drink deeply of His love, His grace, His goodness, His power.............His Shalom, nothing missing nothing broken. That is the first part of the verse "let not your heart be troubled" ..............it says "My peace I give you, my peace I leave with you" ...that peace is the shalom of God, it's yours to enjoy, just drink up........and enjoy Him!!!!

Phil said...

Lydia,I was thinking that while eating my pork chop at lunch time,after listening to Joseph Prince on CD...maybe sometimes it takes some of us some time to get past our mental hang-ups tho and get established in it that way...

lydia said...

Phil,
Yes, I do agree........but....sometimes we need to give ourselves 'permission' to shut off our noisy minds and just relax and enjoy God!! (talking as much to myself as anyone here........) I went through a time that my friend Julie and I like to call 'detox'. It's the initial time after you get the major light bulb revelation of grace when you have to desperately rid yourself of all the legalistic teaching you have stood under and wrap your mind around grace through the Word for yourself. It can take awhile.....I think as time went on I got freer and freer and eventually didn't have to wrestle in my mind so much! You WILL get there.......!!!

Hope you enjoy your Sunday!!

Phil said...

I appreciate the encouragement,Lydia.